160 degree thermostat

[fleegle41]

im about to order the skip shift eliminator from slp and thinking about ordering their 160 degree thermostat along with it since its only an extra $30... any opinions? good? bad? wouldnt make a difference either way?

[Got Me SOM]

It'll help keep your engine cooler, which technically means you'll make a lil more power, every bit helps. put some Water Wetter in your coolant too.

[CamaroSS/RS]

It'll help keep your engine cooler, which technically means you'll make a lil more power, every bit helps. put some Water Wetter in your coolant too.

whats water wetter?

[Got Me SOM]

http://www.redlineoil.com/products_coolant.asp

[POWERFREAK]

im about to order the skip shift eliminator from slp and thinking about ordering their 160 degree thermostat along with it since its only an extra $30... any opinions? good? bad? wouldnt make a difference either way?


If you're keeping everything stock and not planning on getting a PCM tune or you will be driving it in cold weather...I'd leave the stock t-stat. And if you are getting a tune, you don't need the skip-shift elim because you can have it disabled.

[Got Me SOM]

since when do you need a PCM tune by putting in a 160 t stat? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.

[CamaroSS/RS]

It'll help keep your engine cooler, which technically means you'll make a lil more power, every bit helps. put some Water Wetter in your coolant too.

have you used it?

[POWERFREAK]

have you used it?


I've used it...dropped a couple degrees...but not a huge difference. No where near the "up to 30deg" that they advertise. It's a good idea to use it if you run straight water (or small amount of anti-freeze) for the extra corrosion protection.

[POWERFREAK]

since when do you need a PCM tune by putting in a 160 t stat? That makes absolutely no sense what so ever.


you don't NEED a tune (didn't say you did)...but a good tuner will REQUIRE you to change the stat so they don't have to be conservative with the way they tune it. If you want to make more power that's the way to do it. On a stock, every day car...(unless you're in a real hot climate) you really not gonna gain anything by swapping t-stats, other than the time it takes to reach normal temp.

[Got Me SOM]

have you used it?

Yes, it helped a little. On my car I was running a supercharger with an air to water aftercooler so I needed every little bit of heat transfer I could get to make the most power.

Since I live in Florida most of us down here use distilled water and Water Wetter or Purple Ice which is the same kind of product to help keep our temps down. Combine with that kicking on the fans a little lower with the t stat and you had a cool running mofo in the hot summer heat which we have down here.

[fast502]

It needs tuned so your fans will come on early to match the earlier opening t-stat

[POWERFREAK]

It needs tuned so your fans will come on early to match the earlier opening t-stat

yeah, that's another good point...even if you swap the t-stat, your fans aren't coming on any earlier...so it's really not gonna run any cooler, so you're pretty much wasting your time/money.


Yes, it helped a little. On my car I was running a supercharger with an air to water aftercooler so I needed every little bit of heat transfer I could get to make the most power.

Since I live in Florida most of us down here use distilled water and Water Wetter or Purple Ice which is the same kind of product to help keep our temps down. Combine with that kicking on the fans a little lower with the t stat and you had a cool running mofo in the hot summer heat which we have down here.


Yeah...it's amazing how much heat SC's can crank out...every possible thing you can do keep temps down is worth it...can't be too easy in the florida heat.

[Got Me SOM]

Ok I thought you were saying you need a TUNE. Adjusting when the fans come on isn't a tune in my world LOL. Takes about 2 seconds to do with HP tuners.

[$¢'s 5th Gen]

I think also if you dont tune it, you will have a check engine light. On my Envoy, the t-stat was stuck open and it threw a code because it was not running at the correct temp....it was running too cool.

[BLACK10]

i use water wetter in my 66. not sure if it helped or not.

[gto_in_nc]

It's at about this point in a t-stat thread that I like to ask the question, "How does a 160-degree thermostat help? What are the pros & cons???"



:D

[slims00ls1z28]

It helps by opening sooner allowing the coolant more time to be cooled by the fans (which you need tuned to correctly achieve) lowering the operating temperature of the coolant thus lowering the temperature of the engine for a cooler intake charge. :D

The con would be in colder temps it takes longer for the engine to come to operating temp and possible a little less hot of a heater.

I used watter wetter in my Nova that had a 406 with with a 160 t-stat. Even in the high 90's and stop and go traffic I had no overheat issues using just a stock pump fan and no shroud. Prooved it's worth to me for sure. Damn I miss that car. Wish i didn't have to sell it at the time :(.

[davidyan]

Other than the obvious of lowering coolant temps, what are you trying to accomplish by doing this mod? Will you be planning on supercharging? Doing a lot of track runs, etc? If daily driven and no heavy mods, the extra cooling might not be necessary and could even hurt fuel economy if not running at the engine temp originally designed.

[Got Me SOM]

Oh brother.. Is that what they say on the Nissan forums?

A cooler engine will always make more power than a hotter engine. That's just simple hot rodding 101..

[davidyan]

Oh brother.. Is that what they say on the Nissan forums?

A cooler engine will always make more power than a hotter engine. That's just simple hot rodding 101..

No, but you should keep in mind that your Camaro engine, is a modern engine and not the same as the older ones. Unless your stock temp is considered unusually hot or, there are some specifically thought out purposes for lowering the coolant temp, I don't think you're going to see an increase in power as a standalone mod.

Before emission controls and computerized engine controls came along, it was a common practice to install a cooler (160 to 180 degree F.) thermostat for summer or performance driving. The lower thermostat lowered the engine's operating temperature, which in turn reduced the load on the cooling system and reduced the danger of overheating.

This practice is no longer recommended because today's computerized engine control systems require a constant year-round operating temperature of about 195 degrees F... The engine's emission controls as well as it's fuel and spark control systems are all calibrated to work within a given temperature range. If someone replaced the thermostat with the wrong one for the application (either colder or hotter), it can cause driveability and fuel economy issues.

Coolant temperature is used for a variety of engine and emission control functions. The coolant sensor on late model engines tells the computer when the engine has reached normal operating temperature. This, in turn, affects fuel enrichment, spark timing, operation of the EGR valve and purging of the charcoal canister. When you use a low temp t-stat, the coolant may never get hot enough to trigger the appropriate control functions in the computer or TVS vacuum circuits. As a result the engine will run as if it were continually cold, which increases both fuel consumption and emissions. Also, too low an operating temperature also increases cylinder wear.

[Devryn]

No, but you should keep in mind that your Camaro engine, is a modern engine and not the same as the older ones. Unless your stock temp is considered unusually hot or, there are some specifically thought out purposes for lowering the coolant temp, I don't think you're going to see an increase in power as a standalone mod.

Before emission controls and computerized engine controls came along, it was a common practice to install a cooler (160 to 180 degree F.) thermostat for summer or performance driving. The lower thermostat lowered the engine's operating temperature, which in turn reduced the load on the cooling system and reduced the danger of overheating.

This practice is no longer recommended because today's computerized engine control systems require a constant year-round operating temperature of about 195 degrees F... The engine's emission controls as well as it's fuel and spark control systems are all calibrated to work within a given temperature range. If someone replaced the thermostat with the wrong one for the application (either colder or hotter), it can cause driveability and fuel economy issues.

Coolant temperature is used for a variety of engine and emission control functions. The coolant sensor on late model engines tells the computer when the engine has reached normal operating temperature. This, in turn, affects fuel enrichment, spark timing, operation of the EGR valve and purging of the charcoal canister. When you use a low temp t-stat, the coolant may never get hot enough to trigger the appropriate control functions in the computer or TVS vacuum circuits. As a result the engine will run as if it were continually cold, which increases both fuel consumption and emissions. Also, too low an operating temperature also increases cylinder wear.

:owned:

[POWERFREAK]

:owned:


:agree:

[Got Me SOM]

Owned I dont think so, but if you guys wanna believe that ok.

A cooler engine will always make more power than a hotter engine.

Why have the Corvette guys done this mod for years which yielded great results. The engine operating temp will never be 160 degrees, it just allows the coolant to flow sooner and the fans to kick so you can stay around 190-195 after driving it hard. A stock t stat would allow it to go much higher.

It did not affect performance or the parameters you are speaking of. It worked on my SS.

Although your general theory i agree with, it doesn't affect the LS1/2/3 engine operations at all. its a simple T stat and mod on the ecu to kick on the fans so you have a colder engine which help make a colder denser intake charge which in turn will help make a little more power. . Road racers and drag racers use this.

Go check on ls1tech if you think I'm making it up.

[POWERFREAK]

reminds me of the old M6 vs A6 debate...small block vs big block...turbo vs. supercharger...coke vs. pepsi...caprice or lumina for the G8...5GO vs MC...and so on...

[Devryn]

reminds me of the old M6 vs A6 debate...small block vs big block...turbo vs. supercharger...coke vs. pepsi...caprice or lumina for the G8...5GO vs MC...and so on...

I tend to listen to the side of the argument that presents facts in a valid arguement...I usually tune out the "Nuh uh! Go ask so-and-so!"

[POWERFREAK]

I tend to listen to the side of the argument that presents facts in a valid arguement...I usually tune out the "Nuh uh! Go ask so-and-so!"


OK...soooooo, coke or pepsi?

[Devryn]

OK...soooooo, coke or pepsi?

With or without ice? On ice, I prefer Coke. Just cold I like Pepsi better. With Rum, Vanilla Coke Zero is tops. Straight Diet, Pepsi for sure, but Coke Zero is better than Diet Pepsi.

[POWERFREAK]

With or without ice? On ice, I prefer Coke. Just cold I like Pepsi better. With Rum, Vanilla Coke Zero is tops. Straight Diet, Pepsi for sure, but Coke Zero is better than Diet Pepsi.


WOW...I didn't consider the variables. ;) What about in the can or in the bottle? glass or plastic? So much to think about. :eek: I must say...in a glass bottle, coke is it.

[BLACK10]

i always try to run my BB as cool as i can. in this video of a motor we had dynoed(496 bb, stock heads), it made max power,like most engines with a cool temp of 100*, which is why at the end of the video he says "this is the #s you show everybody". it made 10 more hp at 100* than at 180*. after tuning they drain all the hot water out and fill it with cold water to make the "for show" #s. .........my 2 cents

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RcUPuCFuf4

[Devryn]

WOW...I didn't consider the variables. ;) What about in the can or in the bottle? glass or plastic? So much to think about. :eek: I must say...in a glass bottle, coke is it.

I've never had Pepsi in a glass bottle. I gotta say though, I'll only drink coke from the glass bottle if it's made with sugar and not high fructose corn syrup. :)

[yota73]

A cooler engine does not always make more power. Yes a cooler intake charge does but that has nothing to do with the core being cooler. I used lower temp thermostats in my race car and found that I lost power over having the engine run at a more efficient temperature. Yes the cooler is better philosophy works when considering you don't want to warp the cylinder heads, due to nothing being cast iron any longer. So I whole heartedly agree with keeping the stock thermostat in unless you are running an incredible amount of power, enough to affect the cooling effiency of the cooling system itself.

[davidyan]

A cooler engine does not always make more power. Yes a cooler intake charge does but that has nothing to do with the core being cooler. I used lower temp thermostats in my race car and found that I lost power over having the engine run at a more efficient temperature. Yes the cooler is better philosophy works when considering you don't want to warp the cylinder heads, due to nothing being cast iron any longer. So I whole heartedly agree with keeping the stock thermostat in unless you are running an incredible amount of power, enough to affect the cooling effiency of the cooling system itself.

This is exactly why I inquired the original poster of his specific purpose or application. It could help under some driving conditions but many times for standard daily driving, it might not do a lot and could lead to lower fuel economy. You would have to consider whether this is important to you for daily use. Really, not trying to start an argument here. Just wanted him to take into consideration his driving habits / modification plans. When the car is colder, the air/fuel does tend to run a little richer though.

[brandonppr]

Water wetter works best when you run strait water with no coolant. I use it in my LS1 in the summer with stait water. My car doesn't have a tstat. I have an electric waterpump that can turn on and off like a tstat, but this car is mostley drag race so it stays on as soon as the car starts up. It doesn't take long to warm up at all. My temps run around 180* even when hot lapping the car. If I was just normal driving on the street it runs about 165*.
If you run strait water and still run above 220* you will probley boil your water out. I would not attempt to run strait water if you run stat at all.

A 160* thermostat will not make your car run at 160*. I used to have one in my car and IIRC it ran about 230* with the 160stat and 240* with the stock stat. You will need to lower your stock fan temp turnon by about 20* or it will be pointless to do this mod.

I tried back to back runs at different temps on my LS1 and V6 cars and yes it does make it faster. I picked up about .1 on a cosistant car by dropping the temp by 40*. The lower temp the more it picks up until a certain point.

The 160* stat will not make it take longer to reach operating temp because it will operate like normal untill it gets warm enough to open the stat.

You will probley use more fuel. Heating the engine decreases oxygen in the intake air. The hotter the air the less oxygen in the same amount of air. The hot air is not as dense .The less oxygen in the air the less power the engine makes. The more oxygen in the air the more the timing is bumped up. Same goes for The DA the lower the DA the more timing you get and vice versa.
http://i.ehow.com/images/GlobalPhoto/Articles/5149935/262175-main_Full.jpg

Just as the higher the temp outside decreases the DA at a steady elevation. The higher temp intake charge increases the DA further before it enters the combustion chamber thus reducing the oxygen content and reducing timing in the engine.

Here is an example below. Look how much a 20* rise in temp at the same elevation raises the DA.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Density_Altitude.png/567px-Density_Altitude.png

[yota73]

This is exactly why I inquired the original poster of his specific purpose or application. It could help under some driving conditions but many times for standard daily driving, it might not do a lot and could lead to lower fuel economy. You would have to consider whether this is important to you for daily use. Really, not trying to start an argument here. Just wanted him to take into consideration his driving habits / modification plans. When the car is colder, the air/fuel does tend to run a little richer though.

Not only fuel consumption problems but also lowered power due to the engine and accompanying components not being designed to work that low. Unless you are charged of some sort, you wont need this. My ex-boss has a 496 big block chevy bel air and he has built race cars for 20+ years and he will tell you as well that most engines especially chevy engines need to be up around 195-200 degrees if not a couple degrees higher to run efficiently.

[brandonppr]

Not only fuel consumption problems but also lowered power due to the engine and accompanying components not being designed to work that low. Unless you are charged of some sort, you wont need this. My ex-boss has a 496 big block chevy bel air and he has built race cars for 20+ years and he will tell you as well that most engines especially chevy engines need to be up around 195-200 degrees if not a couple degrees higher to run efficiently.

Again there is no way a 160* stat will make your egine run even that low. IIRC the stock stat is a 180* stat and the car runs over 240*

btw the 99-02 ls1 cars had a dummy gauge because in 98 they had a real gauge and people got scared when they seen 240* on the gauge, so in 99 they made the gauge read 210 even if the temp was anywhere between 170-240. I don't know if they did this on the 2010, but the only way to know for sure is to hook up a tuning program and check it yourself. I have a 98 and the gauge is incorrect anyway. The gauge is about 12* off to the low side.

One more thing. The temperature that the tstat opens doesn't really change the temp that the the engine runs too much unless you are driving constantly. If you kept the fan settings the same then in stop and go traffic the temp would come back up to stockish temps thus getting your fuel economy back at low speeds. The main thing is the temp that the fan comes on. My electric pump can run all day with no tstat, but if the fans don't come on the temp keeps going up unless I am driving at interstate speeds.

You could leave the stock setting on the fan and just change the Tstat and only change the setting if you take it to the track. You would still have almost the same MPG at low speeds, but you would have more power on the interstate and when you change the fan settings.

[yota73]

Again there is no way a 160* stat will make your egine run even that low. IIRC the stock stat is a 180* stat and the car runs over 240*

btw the 99-02 ls1 cars had a dummy gauge because in 98 they had a real gauge and people got scared when they seen 240* on the gauge, so in 99 they made the gauge read 210 even if the temp was anywhere between 170-240. I don't know if they did this on the 2010, but the only way to know for sure is to hook up a tuning program and check it yourself. I have a 98 and the gauge is incorrect anyway. The gauge is about 12* off to the low side.

One more thing. The temperature that the tstat opens doesn't really change the temp that the the engine runs too much unless you are driving constantly. If you kept the fan settings the same then in stop and go traffic the temp would come back up to stockish temps thus getting your fuel economy back at low speeds. The main thing is the temp that the fan comes on. My electric pump can run all day with no tstat, but if the fans don't come on the temp keeps going up unless I am driving at interstate speeds.

You could leave the stock setting on the fan and just change the Tstat and only change the setting if you take it to the track. You would still have almost the same MPG at low speeds, but you would have more power on the interstate and when you change the fan settings.

This is very true.

[BlackM6RS/SS]

For here in Texas hot I just got a MR Gasket 160* stat for mine when I install my ARH headers and get a tune. :thumbsup: