Please explain further.

 

Shouldn't there be a bulletin on this or a recall to get this fixed? I have a 2011 2LT and do not want to experience issues like this later on since the car only has 15k miles on it.

 

This has been this way since the first GEn 3.6L non DI LY7 came out in 2003-2004. From 2008 on the 3.6LLT in other GM platforms already had the engine, Camaro has the LLT in 2010-2011 and the LFX 2012-2014.

Every PCV system has several functions, most not under stood or misunderstood. Most only look at the obvious, releasing crankcase pressure. But far more important long term is the constant evacuation of the combustion byproducts that will cause accelerated engine wear/damage if not constantly evacuated, or "flushed" from the crankcase while these are still in a suspended or gaseous state. If not, they condense and fall to the engine oil and coat internal engine parts when you shut down and the engine cools. So any shop/company/person that just defeats the PCV system with breathers, or breathered catchcans the engine will not live nearly as long (unless they change oil after every outing to remove these compounds) as one that has proper crankcase evacuation.

These include (will only list the most damaging as there are a ton):

Unburnt fuel: that contaminates the the oil diluting it and reducing it's ability to protect.

Water vapor: Also dlutes the engine oil and causes corrosion of internal engine parts. Many see this as a milky sludge under the oil fill cap, but when you see this...damage has already begun.

Sulfuric Acid: After this reaches a certain PPM of concentration, it attacks all metal in the engine. The most visible is the discoloration of the drivers side valve cover underneath on a LS3 V8 vs the passenger side that stays flushed, most common internal damage is the acid attacking the bearing surfaces and crank and cam journals. Seen as tiny pits on the journals, and etched "blotches" or "worm tracks" on the bearing surfaces.

Abrasive carbon particles:

The larger ones the oil filter medium will catch, but the smaller ones pass right through and are constantly accumulating in the engine oil and accelerating wear.

How this is prevented by the PCV system is as follows:

LLT & LFX V6:

Clean, filtered and MAF metered (measured) fresh air enters the rear of the drivers side cam/valve cover from the main intake air tube where it passes the valve train, travels down into the main portion of the crankcase, all the while "flushing" or evacuating these compounds while still in suspension, up the passenger side, past the valve train, and out the rear of the passenger side valve cover through the fixed orifice as shown in the pictures, which is them drawn into the intake manifold using the vacuum present to keep these constantly drawn out and out of the crankcase before they can accumulate and cause damage. Then the majority of these are burned harmlessly in the combustion process and further in the catalytic converter.

The issue most auto manufacturers face is the oil mist that is drawn through with this and causes the oil ingestion issues many experience, but they can be trapped by a properly functioning catchcan like the Elite, SMC, RX and a couple others (most let a good amount of oil to pull right through and are not worth installing). The issues is to try and slow this oil ingestion, the manufacturers (GM specifically in this example, but most experience this) is the standard PCV valve has been replaced with these fixed orifices to slow the flow through. This slows oil ingestion, but the small size of the orifice (drivers side rear of valve cover in L((, valley cover in LS3, and passenger side valley cover in V6) allows deposits to form and clog these over time resulting in NO evacuation, and crankcase pressure backing up through the clean side (fresh) into the main intake air tube. On a modified engine, seal leaks and failures can occur, and all the damaging compounds will collect in and accumulate in the crankcase and engine oil. We have been posting on forums how to modify these to prevent this. The V6 the proper size to drill to is 5/64" both the top and bottom two (GM finally started with revised orifices mid-late 2013 and on to correct this, and no, there are no recalls. May be a TSB or two, but I have shared this with GM engineers for over 3 years on how easy of a change this is to correct....took that long to implement).

On the L99, it is in the rear of the drivers side valve cover barb and 1/8" will allow proper CFM of flow to properly evacuate, and the LS3 it is located in the valley cover barb and 1/8" is the size needed, but we prefer to always evac on any of the V8's from the drivers side barb as the valley cover leaves the entire drivers side bank stagnant allowing the acid to attack the rocker pivot needle bearings and races.

So, this is an easy DIY for those wanting to avoid or correct this, as is the addition of one of the few oil separating catchcans that actually catch most or all the oil from causing the intake valve coking issues:

To do this mod, simply unhook the black plastic fitting from the barb by pushing aside the release tab, grab the base of the barb firmly with a plyers or vice grips, twist to break seal and pull straight up taking care not to break the plastic cam cover. Drill the top one and bottom two holes to 5/16" and then blow debris clear of barb, re install making sure to firmly seat the barb back in, reconnect the plastic fitting and your good to go.

Here are some more threads on the subject, and also, ANYONE with a defeated PCV system such as open breathers, open lines hanging down, a catchcan with both the dirty and clean sides run together into it and the intake manifold vacuum port plugged, or a vented catchcan (breather on top) you are slowly killing your engine prematurely, not matter how well you trust whoever did this. And any with a catchcan like described where the clean and dirty side are run together and then vented into the main intake air tube, the least you will see is damaged cat converters and unexplained misfires, the worst is bent rods and broken pistons from the water being ingested in a "gulp" as it burps from the can:

http://www.moderncamaro.com/forum/g...al-technical-discussion/52026-understanding-intake-valve-coking-di-engines.html

http://www.moderncamaro.com/forum/g...iscussion/52018-understanding-causes-oil-consumption-todays-modern-engines.html

And I had a DIY on manually cleaning the intake valves but that seems to have gotten deleted..let me post that again.

Any questions or clarification, just ask.

:thumbsup:

 

This has been this way since the first GEn 3.6L non DI LY7 came out in 2003-2004. From 2008 on the 3.6LLT in other GM platforms already had the engine, Camaro has the LLT in 2010-2011 and the LFX 2012-2014.

Every PCV system has several functions, most not under stood or misunderstood. Most only look at the obvious, releasing crankcase pressure. But far more important long term is the constant evacuation of the combustion byproducts that will cause accelerated engine wear/damage if not constantly evacuated, or "flushed" from the crankcase while these are still in a suspended or gaseous state. If not, they condense and fall to the engine oil and coat internal engine parts when you shut down and the engine cools. So any shop/company/person that just defeats the PCV system with breathers, or breathered catchcans the engine will not live nearly as long (unless they change oil after every outing to remove these compounds) as one that has proper crankcase evacuation.

These include (will only list the most damaging as there are a ton):

Unburnt fuel: that contaminates the the oil diluting it and reducing it's ability to protect.

Water vapor: Also dlutes the engine oil and causes corrosion of internal engine parts. Many see this as a milky sludge under the oil fill cap, but when you see this...damage has already begun.

Sulfuric Acid: After this reaches a certain PPM of concentration, it attacks all metal in the engine. The most visible is the discoloration of the drivers side valve cover underneath on a LS3 V8 vs the passenger side that stays flushed, most common internal damage is the acid attacking the bearing surfaces and crank and cam journals. Seen as tiny pits on the journals, and etched "blotches" or "worm tracks" on the bearing surfaces.

Abrasive carbon particles:

The larger ones the oil filter medium will catch, but the smaller ones pass right through and are constantly accumulating in the engine oil and accelerating wear.

How this is prevented by the PCV system is as follows:

LLT & LFX V6:

Clean, filtered and MAF metered (measured) fresh air enters the rear of the drivers side cam/valve cover from the main intake air tube where it passes the valve train, travels down into the main portion of the crankcase, all the while "flushing" or evacuating these compounds while still in suspension, up the passenger side, past the valve train, and out the rear of the passenger side valve cover through the fixed orifice as shown in the pictures, which is them drawn into the intake manifold using the vacuum present to keep these constantly drawn out and out of the crankcase before they can accumulate and cause damage. Then the majority of these are burned harmlessly in the combustion process and further in the catalytic converter.

The issue most auto manufacturers face is the oil mist that is drawn through with this and causes the oil ingestion issues many experience, but they can be trapped by a properly functioning catchcan like the Elite, SMC, RX and a couple others (most let a good amount of oil to pull right through and are not worth installing). The issues is to try and slow this oil ingestion, the manufacturers (GM specifically in this example, but most experience this) is the standard PCV valve has been replaced with these fixed orifices to slow the flow through. This slows oil ingestion, but the small size of the orifice (drivers side rear of valve cover in L((, valley cover in LS3, and passenger side valley cover in V6) allows deposits to form and clog these over time resulting in NO evacuation, and crankcase pressure backing up through the clean side (fresh) into the main intake air tube. On a modified engine, seal leaks and failures can occur, and all the damaging compounds will collect in and accumulate in the crankcase and engine oil. We have been posting on forums how to modify these to prevent this. The V6 the proper size to drill to is 5/64" both the top and bottom two (GM finally started with revised orifices mid-late 2013 and on to correct this, and no, there are no recalls. May be a TSB or two, but I have shared this with GM engineers for over 3 years on how easy of a change this is to correct....took that long to implement).

On the L99, it is in the rear of the drivers side valve cover barb and 1/8" will allow proper CFM of flow to properly evacuate, and the LS3 it is located in the valley cover barb and 1/8" is the size needed, but we prefer to always evac on any of the V8's from the drivers side barb as the valley cover leaves the entire drivers side bank stagnant allowing the acid to attack the rocker pivot needle bearings and races.

So, this is an easy DIY for those wanting to avoid or correct this, as is the addition of one of the few oil separating catchcans that actually catch most or all the oil from causing the intake valve coking issues:

To do this mod, simply unhook the black plastic fitting from the barb by pushing aside the release tab, grab the base of the barb firmly with a plyers or vice grips, twist to break seal and pull straight up taking care not to break the plastic cam cover. Drill the top one and bottom two holes to 5/16" and then blow debris clear of barb, re install making sure to firmly seat the barb back in, reconnect the plastic fitting and your good to go.

Here are some more threads on the subject, and also, ANYONE with a defeated PCV system such as open breathers, open lines hanging down, a catchcan with both the dirty and clean sides run together into it and the intake manifold vacuum port plugged, or a vented catchcan (breather on top) you are slowly killing your engine prematurely, not matter how well you trust whoever did this. And any with a catchcan like described where the clean and dirty side are run together and then vented into the main intake air tube, the least you will see is damaged cat converters and unexplained misfires, the worst is bent rods and broken pistons from the water being ingested in a "gulp" as it burps from the can:

Understanding intake valve coking in DI engines

Understanding the causes of oil consumption in todays...

And I had a DIY on manually cleaning the intake valves but that seems to have gotten deleted..let me post that again.

Any questions or clarification, just ask.

👍

Hello, thank you for the discussion and valuable information. To follow up with the catch can dos and do nots. I have a 2009 GMC Acadia with this issue of course. I was planning on doing a 2 to 1 catch can with the combined outlet going to the plastic intake throat, and capping off the the dirty return past the throttle body (on the throttle body itself). Can you please explain why this is a bad idea?
Also, I did the rear PCV mod, the manual intake clean (it was bad!), plus sea foam flush, followed by oil change.
I appreciate your follow-up insight.
Justin

 

Here are some more pics and info:




Remove the PCV fixed orifice barb and drill it to 5/64" both top and bottom and this will go away. Here is what they look like when they clog, and they dont sell them separate from the valve cover:

This prevents the crankcase from evacuating and all the damaging combustion byproducts are accumulating (along with moisture/water) in the crankcase. Pressure will drive some into the main clean-side air intake tube.

Here is a cam cover with the mod done:

And not done:

And removed to drill:

And of course what your intake valves most likely look like if not using a good catchcan:

 

Is it easy to get to the rear of the passenger side cam/valve cover? And is this something GM would correct if I was to bring it into the shop?

 

Easy to do yourself.....follow the black hard plastic line from the center of the intake manifold to the PCV barb and you can release the fitting that attaches it by pushing th e small plastic tab over that is molded into the fitting to release and it pops right off. Then use a plyers to grip it at the bottom (you will see the ridge) and twist and pull straight up.

GM is well aware as they made the changes going forward from mid-late 2013 and up, but techs at the dealers will not have any knowledge on it and don't expect them to incur the added cost to train and do as most are never aware of most issues (ALL manufacturers, not just GM) and as time passes it becomes someone else s problem.

Same as the oil ingestion issues. This is an easy mod to do though, just take your time and be careful when drilling, then blow out any debris after doing it, then re-insert firmly and reconnect and your all good.

:thumbsup:

 

Drill the top hole to 7/64's, and the two bottom ones 5/64's.

Here is what the 2014's look like in comparison:

Only took them 4 years to implement the change after posting this mod and sharing the cause and solution.

 

Can anyone tell me if the new version of the PCV valve can be pulled out too? I tried to pull on mine during and elite catch can install and now I have a P0151 code. I think I have a vacuum leak from the Barb and I'm not sure if I should try to pull it and then reseat or to try to tap it back in or seal it somehow.
Any advice would be welcome. I replaced the O2 sensor and still have the issue. (Another question is which bank is bank 2 on the V6. The info I've found was driver's side, but then I found conflicting) now my O2 sensor isn't registering any voltage... My birthday weekend this weekend so I'd love to get it back on the road.

 

I will be doing this when I tear my engine down. I might even add a second valve and fresh air breather while I'm at it just incase.

 

Fresh air breather will break the system...you will need to do this and add secondary evacuation source for in-boost operation. If you need details ask, I'll guide you through it.

:thumbsup:

 

Thanks...but i got it.

 

Your in FL, stop in and see some of the FI LLT & LFX builds, etc.

 

Where are you at? I might stop by with the turd once I get it up and running.





PS: Your =/= you're

 

I have a question the I think is semi-related to this thread ... with catch cans there are also sold the breather / filter things that replace the oil fill cap ... what do these do? and does it make a difference for a V6 versus a V8?

 

Sorry for the late reply.

A breather that is unrestricted will allow un-metered air into the system and mess with your fuel trims. I recommend a flow controlled breather or a 1LE style cleanside separator that maintains 100% metered air

Where are you at? I might stop by with the turd once I get it up and running.





PS: Your =/= you're

Palmetto between Tampa and Sarasota just off I-75.

:thumbsup:

 

K, you are not to far then.

 

Too=/= To **

 

That is really my question as well (I think) the breather I got with my RX catch can replaces the oil cap and has a filter on the end ... doesn't look like it plugs into anything ... metered or unmetered?

 

I pulled the PCV barb out to drill and noticed what looked like some red loctite around the collar that goes into the cam cover. Should there be something applied when reinstalling it?

 

Yes, that is what it is, and yes you can use red or blue. Or it is a .001 interference fit so even with no sealer it seats nice and tight.

 

Yes, that is what it is, and yes you can use red or blue. Or it is a .001 interference fit so even with no sealer it seats nice and tight.[/


will the 2014 PCV fixed orifice barb fit our 2012? do you know the official part number?

 

Unfortunately GM switched from plastic valve/cam covers to aluminum for 2014 and although the barb is the same size, it is not available separate. You have to purchase the entire valve cover to get the new one. The drill mod is pretty easy though. If anyone needs further clarification, just ask and I an be more detailed.

:thumbsup:

 

The LLT & LFX have oil consumption and crankcase evacuation issues that I have covered in other threads, but here is an example of how critical it is to do the drill mod the PCV barb located in the rear of the passenger side cam/valve cover. The holes are far to small from the factory until late 2013-2014 where GM changed the size to a proper CFM of flow and prevents the issues going forward. (only took the past 3-4 years to get it this far as many know how I have pushed this). Here is a few year old one that shows what happens, and if the crankcase cannot evacuate properly all the damaging combustion byproducts will accumulate in the crankcase greatly shortening engine life.

The proper drill size is 5/64" and both the top single, and bottom 2 holes need this drilled:

If you have one of the systems that dletes the PCV systems function and ties the clean and dirty sides together, you will see excess condesation and possible damage to catalytic converters or piston/rod damage from the ingestion of "gulps" of water as it fills the can and "burps" it into the intake air pipe.

Ask for more info on anything related to proper PCV/Crankcase evacuation on both V8's and V6's.

:thumbsup:

Drill the top hole to 7/64's, and the two bottom ones 5/64's.

Here is what the 2014's look like in comparison:

Only took them 4 years to implement the change after posting this mod and sharing the cause and solution.

all three holes the same ?? or top hole 7/64 or 5/64's?

 

Top hole 7/64" bottom two 5/64" :thumbsup:

 

just did this, it was really easy,, a couple notes..

1. to unhook the hose - there is a small release lever on the hose connector, push it & hose comes right off.

2. to get the plug out of the valve cover, it's pretty tight but there is just enough room to get a standard sized vise grip on it from above and pull it out, it takes about 20 pounds of force but it will come out.

note, my 2012 has 22,000 miles with a catch can on since 6,000, the plug was very clean.

 

Excellent. This is a must for all

 

Here is a great in depth video on cleaning the valves:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnMhNXXawjk

 

Wow...I had not idea that BMW used a media-blaster for this problem. The GM upper eng cleaner and a hard drive is what GM recommends...Sometimes the intake needs to come off and you have to let the cleaner soak to get the heavier stuff.



geonny....you got me. LOL. I'm usually pretty good with my to/two/too's and my there/their/they're's

 

I used to be a seafoam and BG user....but after examining what occurs during these treatments, and seeing the high rate of bearing failures after performing the service if the oil is not immediately changed, and further, inspecting the results after a solvent based cleaning and how much is still left on the valves....won't use it any more.

Here is what the solvent does, and all the brands have similar ingredients:

The solvent soaks into the hard deposits, and causes them to expand and break loose. Most is then expelled out the exhaust vales, but some of the smaller particles (very hard if baked on for any amount of time) are forced down between the piston and cylinder wall...and some minor scouring always occurs. Over time, this turns into more substantial scouring and the piston/ring/wall seal is compromised to some extent. And then you have the solvent that also washes past the rings and enters the crankcase....making an oil change a must.

You can go to BG's website and see pictures of using it on a regular basis keeping much of the coking at a minimum, but tear down and examine the piston skirts and cylinder walls to see the gradual damage.

Use the brush method or the walnut shell method and nothing gets into the cylinder, and the results are as the engine came new. Install one of the few effective catchcan systems and avoid it altogether (a system that catches all the oil/etc.

Anyone in FL just stop in to see LLT and LFX cylinder heads and engines torn down to see all of this in person and I am happy to show examples and will also remove your intake manifold free to show you your own. And now with all 2015's being DI (v8's now), this affects all GM gasoline engines.

:thumbsup:

 

On heavy build ups we soak and then use the BG brake flush machine's suction hose to suck the junk out (at least that was my practice when I was still wrenching).




So I finally go along to doing this mod. I was expecting to find a one-way PCV valve inside... but mine is just a hollow fitting. Is this normal?
On the CTS's the hose runs into the intake so I always assumed they where like any other PCV valve with a spring loaded plate that closes under WOT (boost)... I guess the holes are so small to act as a metering hole to eliminate the need for a valve while still letting the engine control the idle.

 

GM went away from the old variable flow PCV valves to fixed orifice design in the early 2000's in an attempt to reduce the oil ingestion issue, but it was too restrictive to begin with and only recently adopted our design for 2014 and up (look at the 2014 LFX design and hole sizes).

The IAT control has been eliminated due to coking issues as well in the early 2000's and all idle air control is accomplished with the DBW throttle body servo motor control commands by the ECU/PCM.

I'm not aware of any auto makers that still use the outdated IAT control valves anymore. Just as EGR valves have (another coking issue prone device) gone the way of the dinosaur as well.

Lot's of ever evolving technology. :thumbsup:

 

I have done mine

I have posted some more photo's step-by-step for those who, like me, find it hard to read just words.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1017289898346817.1073741859.297393257003155&type=3

This is on our Chevrolet Camaro UK FaceBook Page Albums here:
https://www.facebook.com/ChevroletCamaroUk/