Modern Camaro Forums banner
1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
As I write this, the market that the Camaro was built for is changing. With a very real possibility of a military strike against Iran in the near future, there is no way to predict how much the price of oil will jump to. If Iran successfully controls the outflow of oil from the Persian Gulf, even for a brief period of time, one fourth to possibly even one third of the available oil will suddenly be removed from the market.

This will affect the price of gasoline that the American consumer pays. This will affect the Camaro market.

The Camaro has been in development for what, five years prior to its release? Earnest question: why? Is the bureaucracy at GM the problem? Are the technological advances in a new version of a V-8 engine and IRS to blame for the long birthing process? Influence from the marketing department?

As an outsider looking in, as in a customer looking at a supplier, it feels like there is something or a group of somethings dysfunctional at GM. The Camaro project seems to be just a symptom. The Camaro would have been ideally placed in the market about 24-30 months ago.

I really don't want to be sitting around three years from now saying the same thing about the Volt. Are there lessons to be learned from the new Camaro project that can be applied to other projects within GM? I belive there are.

I strongly suspect this forum to be supported, at least to some level, by agents or employees of General Motors. This is why I wrote this. I'm not alone in that I'm a passionate fan of the products that GM brings to the market. I am concerned for the future of GM if current and future offerings follow the same development and production schedule.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,867 Posts
My thoughts:

Yeah, there will be problems with Iran(war? Depends on how much control Cheney still has), and our gas prices will go up. Most people have huge SUVs or huge trucks now (I do), and even the V8 Camaro will get better gas mileage than those. But the V6 is going to be the big seller, with awesome power and even better gas mileage.

Most people don't NEED the big SUVs, but instead like the size and the possibility that they will take 6 of their friends with them. The SUVs will be the hardest hit first, then the cars. But hopefully GM is ramping up on more economical engine choices (turbos, hybrids, etc) like every other manufacturer, because the higher prices are coming.

The Volt's problem is that it is new tech, the batteries are not the normal ones, and they are expensive now because of that. Catch 22, we need more people buying the cars to bring down the prices, but no one will buy the cars because of the higher prices. However, with $7 and $8 gas (what the rest of the world pays), the new tech will suddenly become affordable and reasonable.

And the Camaro program, although in concept form 5 years ago, wasn't green-lighted at that point. They are on a reasonable schedule when it comes to building a car from scratch. The Challenger came out faster because they used all existing stuff from the Charger, and just removed 2 doors and reshaped the skin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Yep makes you wonder but with the big brass at GM its amazing we are going to get a CAMARO at all? . If it takes this long and cost so much to produce wonder if its even worth it to GM?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yep makes you wonder but with the big brass at GM its amazing we are going to get a CAMARO at all? . If it takes this long and cost so much to produce wonder if its even worth it to GM?
No one, including GM's 'big brass' could have prediced the current state of oil five years ago. This fundamental change could have affected any project that GM was undertaking. I'm not questioning GM's vision; I'm suspect of their management of day to day operations. Both the Camaro and the Volt both have places, profitable places I suspect, in the market. Why aren't they already in the market?

How much of a difference would it have been to have a Camaro two years ago, versus placing them in showrooms next spring?

I WANT a LS3 powered Camaro. I just don't know if I can justify nearly 10% of the car's retail value per year in fuel costs for my average commute and use of the vehicle.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,867 Posts
I still think as people's realities shift, and they drop their large vehicles, they won't jump straight from a huge SUV to a Kia Spectra. Camaro may lose buyers that it would have had with lower gas prices, but I think it will attract others that may not have considered it, but will now because they want a fun, affordable car, that still offers pretty good gas mileage.

As for production schedules, yeah, it's bad timing, but when they are put into place, it has to go on schedule. If not, you affect the rule of 3 in a negative way.

Rule of three:
Cheap
Quick
Right
-pick any two of the above.

If you speed up production schedules, and keep costs down, you get bad quality. If you speed up and keep quality, costs get overwhelming. I'm sure GM would LOVE to have the Volt out on the market right now, but it's not ready. And I'm sure they are kicking themselves about the Camaro not coming out 2 years ago, but not much they can do about that now.

All car manufacturers plan on what they think buyers will want 5, 10, 15 years from now. Horrible gas prices weren't in the plans.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,746 Posts
Iran

The fact of the matter is our nation is changing in ways it never has before, and too quickly. GM could not have predicted the disaster that we are in now. True, others warned us, people who have dedicated their lives to the study of economics, but even they are shocked at how bad things have gotten. Should GM get better at getting cars to the public faster? Yes, for so many reasons. But I can not be mad at them because they did not use their crystal ball. Although, they do a make a ton from war. All Iraqi Police, and Army trucks are GM. Along with so many military rides, parts, etc etc.

People are concerned about going to war with Iran. They should be. It would be an economical disaster not only for the U.S., but for the rest of the world. One of key factors that would stop me from buying a Camaro is the price of gas. War with Iran would cripple this nation by the simple virtue that we would be further de-stabilizing a region that we have let ourselves become dependent on. Saudi Arabia is far from friends with us, and Americans need to quickly wake up to that fact. There is far to much fighting within the Saudi Royal Family for sure support form their nation. Add to the fact that they are not thrilled about us having gone into Iraq this time around. Syria, yeah, there is a lot of love from those people. It's not lack of oil that is the problem. Far from it. How can you post record profits by using record pricing, then tell us there is a shortage? There isn't. But now they have the key to the city and are running wild, and unchecked. You want to drive a V8 Camaro? You want to Supercharge it and do all kinds of crazy things and get really bad gas mileage but go really fast? Great! I do to! But now you can see how sitting back and not taking control of an issue is now affecting us all. People say "I guess we will go to war with Iran." As if we don't have a choice in the matter or something. People need to stop thinking that the next President will some how change things. Vote for just one guy, and that's the end of it. Well, I will tell you as an American I am pissed that I my choice in what car I drive is being taken away from me. I want my Camaro and I want to be able to afford the gas. I have worked very hard, and have not foolishly spent my money, so I should be able to have one. I for one will be very vocal on the topic of oil, Iran, etc etc because as we see now, being quite gets our Camaro's stuck in the garage or the dealers lot and not on the road.

End Rant - Please Don't Ban Me ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Iam not saying what they could predict or not iam saying how much return will GM get from the new CAMARO versus cost. How did the new GTO benefit PONTIAC? How will the G8 also.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,668 Posts
I don't think it was too long getting the Camaro to the market. If its released for sale in Q1 of 2009 then that would make it 3 years since it was announced in Q1 of 2006. This is a whole new car in 3 years.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,153 Posts
Iam not saying what they could predict or not iam saying how much return will GM get from the new CAMARO versus cost. How did the new GTO benefit PONTIAC? How will the G8 also.
You cannot compair the GTO to the Camaro in any way, shape or form from a business standpoint. They're apples and oranges. The G8 will be a more appropriate comparison.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I don't like this conclusion: There will soon be a shooting war with Iran as the passive-aggressive antagonist.

There can be no question that Iran having nuclear arms is a bad thing for the entire world. This is by definition a clear and present danger to the United States. It would simply be a matter of time before a nuclear weapon was used against the United States or Israel. This can not happen.

In that context, the most likely course of action will be a military strike by Israel, tacitly supported by the U.S., against the Iranian nuclear facilities.

Following this course of events, Iran will move to control the Persian Gulf. When this happens, Saudi Arabia will suddenly become much, much more supportive of Western interests. The United States Navy will not allow the Persian Gulf to become inaccessible to supertankers. It might take some time, but U.S. control of the Persian Gulf will follow.

In the short run, gasoline prices in the U.S. will double. In time, they will fall back to their current levels, until ultimatetly, alternative sources of energy are developed to supportable levels by economies of scale.

My point? This is a catastrophic time to be releasing a V8 muscle car, no matter how much I want one. Two years ago would not have been.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I don't think it was too long getting the Camaro to the market. If its released for sale in Q1 of 2009 then that would make it 3 years since it was announced in Q1 of 2006. This is a whole new car in 3 years.

There were concept vehicles and possibly prototypes in 2006. The idea for the vehicle was surely around well prior to that time. IF the Camaro makes it into showrooms by Q1 09', it will be at least three years, possibly more, from idea to showroom.

3 years is waaaay too long for a 'whole' new car.

For reference, the North American P-51 Mustang was designed, developed, and flown within 117 days. This was accomplished with slide rules, drafting tables, and 1940's technology.

The structure of GM needs to change. In time, this could very well be the defining point in GM's, correction, all the American automakers' history.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Yea its not the timing its if these speciality so called cars are going to be worth it to GM or even DODGE ? Chevy has only sold about 15000 vettes so far this year also looks like so far this year GM is down about 70000 car sales
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
You cannot compair the GTO to the Camaro in any way, shape or form from a business standpoint. They're apples and oranges. The G8 will be a more appropriate comparison.
WHY? Do not get me wrong in thinking the GTOwas in any way a bad car. I owned an 04 it was my 2nd favorite car so far / and the g8 if i not mistaken is in a different catagory right.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,153 Posts
WHY? Do not get me wrong in thinking the GTOwas in any way a bad car. I owned an 04 it was my 2nd favorite car so far / and the g8 if i not mistaken is in a different catagory right.
The GTO is not a good comparison for the Camaro because it doesn't fill the same market nitch. It was offered in limited numbers (and still didn't sell well) and they didn't offer any base model V-6s to sell to the masses. The Camaro has market strategy, whereas the GTO didn't have much of anything.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
The GTO is not a good comparison for the Camaro because it doesn't fill the same market nitch. It was offered in limited numbers (and still didn't sell well) and they didn't offer any base model V-6s to sell to the masses. The Camaro has market strategy, whereas the GTO didn't have much of anything.
This is true but then again they can do what is needed. There was a v6 monaro they could have used. Ithink they planed on selling 40k v8 GTOs the first year i think they sold 40k in 3 years. They do have marketing divisions and when we are talking masses are we saying CAMARO #s or MUSTANGE #s remember they didnt build many LS1 cars compared to the past and they probably wont build a ton of the new one either. also my question was is the so called specialty car worth it to the big 3 ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,544 Posts
The GTO was what we're wishing the Camaro would be. It was decided to bring something here to the US. They quickly slapped a new bumper on it and called it a Pontiac. It was a disappointment and did not live up to the hype.

The Camaro is going to be much more than just a rebadge like the GTO was. That's why it's taking so long. I hope it will be worth the wait.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,873 Posts
I think we need some big news soon (like a production model w/ specs)...so we can stop with all these "sky is falling" kind of posts that seem to be littering all the Camaro boards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,298 Posts
I'm still confused as to why the Geo Metro hit 52 mpg.....and the best the Aveo can do is mid to low 30's........Time to dig out the old blueprints!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,054 Posts
I think we need some big news soon (like a production model w/ specs)...so we can stop with all these "sky is falling" kind of posts that seem to be littering all the Camaro boards.
+1 :thumbsup:
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top