[Chris 96 WS6]

This thread is going to be a work in progress developing a business case paper on a mid-level V8 for the Camaro. There's enough of us upset at the rumors of a high output V6 going up against the GT instead of a base V8 model that we want to actually do something about it.

My concept for a campaign for a Mid-V8 is to develop the write up first to encapsulate what we want, then start a petition and spread on all the popular sites.

Here are some notes I typed up on the data we need to get our feet wet. I think we have the concept down pretty firmly, just need facts to insert where needed

We need to know the following:

Fuel consumption of HFV6
Fuel consumption of LS4 with AFM

HP/TQ for HFV6
HP/TQ for LS4

Physical/external dimensions and weight of HFV6
Physical/external dimensions and weight of LS4

Maintenance costs/reliability of HFV6
Maintenance costs/reliability of LS4

88-92 Camaro sales data broken down by engine option, specifically looking at V8 Rally Sport as % of the whole. Need to demonstrate demand for mid-v8 and disspell concerns over cannibalizing SS/Z28 sales.

Estimated 5th gen model pricing

Guy's estimates are V6 Camaro ~$20K, a few $100 more than Mustang
HFV6 $24K, a few hundred less than Mustang
SS $26-28K, which is absurdly optimistic. Figure $30K

Today's Mustang model pricing extrapolated to 2008/9
Current $19,900 V6 (adjusting for 3yrs inflation 21,100)
GT is $25,800 (2009: 27,400)

Projected matchup
Mustang V6 $21,100 -- Camaro V6 $21,600
Mustang GT $27,400 -- HFV6 Camaro $26,000 (a Charlie number)
--------------------------------- Camaro SS $30K plus
GT500 $36,000 ---------- Z28 $37,000

Current model Mustang sales numbers, specifically % of GT sales vs whole and compared to V6 sales.

 

[NviouSS]

will this HOV6 be standard or an option?

 

[DvBoard]

Think 4 different engines . And this kinda matchup:
Mustang V6 vs Camaro V6
??????????? vs Camaro HFV6
Mustang GT vs Camaro SS
Mustang GT500 vs Camaro Z28

 

[LiquidFire350]

Z28 is gonna be the high price option?

 

[OverAnxious]

This thread is going to be a work in progress developing a business case paper on a mid-level V8 for the Camaro. There's enough of us upset at the rumors of a high output V6 going up against the GT instead of a base V8 model that we want to actually do something about it.

Who is upset about this? The article just compared the power of the possible V6 in the Camaro to older gen Mustangs

 

[Chris 96 WS6]

I should have put this in a private forum I guess. There is a core group of people that are "concerned" about price points and the HFV6.

At this point the Mustang GT is $26K and the SS Camaro will come in closer to $30. We'll lose a lot of sales if it costs $4K more to get into a V8 Camaro than a V8 Mustang.

A V6, no matter how high in HP, is not a V8.

 

[OverAnxious]

GM will not put up a V6 against the Mustang GT, I don't understand the 'fear' you guys are talking about I guess.

The Z28 has always cost more then a comprably equipped V8 Mustang, sometimes more than a GT.

 

[TheDecalSite.com]

and the GM always put out a better product... IMO

 

[Chris 96 WS6]

GM will not put up a V6 against the Mustang GT, I don't understand the 'fear' you guys are talking about I guess.

The Z28 has always cost more then a comprably equipped V8 Mustang, sometimes more than a GT.

You haven't been reading the same things I have been reading. Some inside GM think a hi-po multicam V6 is just the thing to get conquest sales from the import drivers. Such a HFV6 would be price under but close to a GT mustang. The cheapest Camaro V8 would be an SS and would be a few grand more than a GT. That is a recipie for disaster.

Its looking like Z28 will not exist in the first year but come out later as a balls-out Z06 style model.

 

[OverAnxious]

You haven't been reading the same things I have been reading. Some inside GM think a hi-po multicam V6 is just the thing to get conquest sales from the import drivers. Such a HFV6 would be price under but close to a GT mustang. The cheapest Camaro V8 would be an SS and would be a few grand more than a GT. That is a recipie for disaster.

Its looking like Z28 will not exist in the first year but come out later as a balls-out Z06 style model.

I don't see any problems offering a HO V6 for the tuner market, that is a very HOT market right now.

Again, the Z28 has always been prices higher then the V8 LX and some GT Mustangs, I don't see that changing.

 

[Chris 96 WS6]

I really don't give a **** if they offer a HFV6....

My problem is if they price it up against the GT. It will get slaughtered. To be competitive you are going to have to be able to buy a V8 camaro for close to the same price as a V8 GT. If the cheapest V8 Camaro is $4K more than a GT then Camaro is screwed.

It really has nothing to do with the HFV6 or whether that is a good idea or not, its the ABSENCE of a true Mustang GT price competitor. No matter how much HP a V6 is a V6 and somebody wanting the cheapest V8 is not going to settle for a V6 instead regardless of the HP of the V6.

That's my concern.

Yes Z28 was always a tad more expensive, but not $4,000 more expensive. That's a pretty big gulch to jump.

 

[OverAnxious]

I see what you are saying, but I have no idea where you get any pricing info for the new Camaro?

This is all speculation IMO

I was comparing the Z28 to the V8 LX Mustangs, The GT and Z28 have been pretty competitive since the late 80s.

 

[Chris 96 WS6]

I agree the pricing is shaky, it is speculation based, but one can assume if the base V6 is a couple hundred dollars more than the V6 Stang ~ $20K, then the HFV6 would be at least $23 or more. I just do not see an SS Camaro coming in any less than $30K, which creates a pretty big hole for you to drive a $26K Mustang GT through.

Charlie and Guy at Camaroz28 have put in their 2 cents in on pricing and its enough evidence considering they have inside sources that some of us are worried they're going to try to throw a V6 car up as some sort of head-to-head competition for a V8 Mustang.

 

[OverAnxious]

I agree the pricing is shaky, it is speculation based, but one can assume if the base V6 is a couple hundred dollars more than the V6 Stang ~ $20K, then the HFV6 would be at least $23 or more. I just do not see an SS Camaro coming in any less than $30K, which creates a pretty big hole for you to drive a $26K Mustang GT through.

Charlie and Guy at Camaroz28 have put in their 2 cents in on pricing and its enough evidence considering they have inside sources that some of us are worried they're going to try to throw a V6 car up as some sort of head-to-head competition for a V8 Mustang.

Prices are pure speculation at this point for sure

I wouldn't believe everything you read on the internet

 

[Phoenix 5.7]

The LS3(isn't that the 5.3l?) is what should be the mustang GT competitor. V6 is, and always should be on the lower end of a american sportscar. even if the V6 makes the same power as the competitors V8, more cylinders is better to the general populus, especially the older guys. I have no problem with a high performance V6, but a midlevel V8 is a necessity.

P.S. the LS7 will never make it in a Camaro. the engine is being phased out in a few years

 

[Gonna be a 5th gen owner]

They should just offer v-8's istead if v-6's any way this is supposed to be the future of american muscle why waste time with v-6's have a low end camaro offer a 5.3 and go from there 300 horses is not a bad start! of course for the people who can't afford gas there could be the cylinder deactivation option

 

[LiquidFire350]

The LS3(isn't that the 5.3l?) is what should be the mustang GT competitor. V6 is, and always should be on the lower end of a american sportscar. even if the V6 makes the same power as the competitors V8, more cylinders is better to the general populus, especially the older guys. I have no problem with a high performance V6, but a midlevel V8 is a necessity.

P.S. the LS7 will never make it in a Camaro. the engine is being phased out in a few years

i think the ls3 is somewhere around a 6.0, i remember reading thats whats gonna be in the 08 GTO and its supposed to have 450hp

and theres something about new emission standards thats gonna make the LS7 non-compliant

 

[OverAnxious]

They should just offer v-8's istead if v-6's any way this is supposed to be the future of american muscle why waste time with v-6's have a low end camaro offer a 5.3 and go from there 300 horses is not a bad start! of course for the people who can't afford gas there could be the cylinder deactivation option

They have always had 6 cyl base motors, except the early 3rd gens with the 4 bangers, don't even get me started on those :lol:

I can't see them not have a 6 cyl as the base powertrain

 

[Chris 96 WS6]

The car wont sell enough units to be profitable w/o at least 1 V6 model. The reason the 4th gen died was due to poor V6 sales. They usually make up 60% of sales (look at Mustang's V6 sales).

Not having a V6 model is simply NOT an option. I just think its silly to put a ricer-style multicam V6 up against a Mustang GT in the showroom.

 

[OverAnxious]

The car wont sell enough units to be profitable w/o at least 1 V6 model. The reason the 4th gen died was due to poor V6 sales. They usually make up 60% of sales (look at Mustang's V6 sales).

Not having a V6 model is simply NOT an option. I just think its silly to put a ricer-style multicam V6 up against a Mustang GT in the showroom.

I do agree a base V6 is needed, there were a great number of sales. I don't have my white book handy to post any numbers.

Why do you keep thinking GM will put up a HO V6 against the GT? The article I read on this site merely pointed out how powerful the V6 would be, not that GM would put it up against it.

I know you were talking about pricing earlier, but head to head, there will be no V6 Camaro compared to any V8 Mustang, that is apples & oranges IMO.

The V8 Camaros will out perform the V8 Mustangs as usual