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:suburban:

Crap.....and I'm always peaking through the blinds for the Black Suburbans.....now I have to watch out for the 'G' Men, too?:eek:
 

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i don't believe everything the press says... most of the powers given in the patriot act were already in use... actually more like all of those powers, they just became less clandestine about it, and maybe mom doesn't know everything her son does lol... i have nothing to hide, so yeah, they can watch me all they want. :D
 

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:agree:

My speakers don't work, so, whatever.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Well, let's just say this -- I can guarantee that there is at least one member on this forum who could lift & spoof your IP address & make VoIP calls to anywhere that trace directly back to your computer and could do so before the sun rises tomorrow. So, guilty until proved innocent and prior abuses make current or future abuses acceptable and you think you have nothing to hide so it's OK if the federal government violates the constitutional rights of a minor citizen??? I just lost a lot of respect for you, my friend.

BTW, this is not an isolated case of Patriot Act abuse but it is the most egregious I have heard of (and happens to have occurred just up the road from me...)
 

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They've never heard of spoofing??? :confused:
Actually, they have. But in this age where digital evidence can easily be forged and almost impossible to discredit, **** like this will happen a lot more often.

Read "Death of A Thousand Cuts" and "Stealing the Network: How to own the Identity" by penetration tester and forensic computer specialist Johnny Long. You'll never view surfing the net as safe again. All it takes is one intercepted packet and you'll end up in a dark lawyer-less cave like that poor kid has.

The best way to learn about how dark and dangerous the net can be is to go and read all the articles at Black Hat.com. Try to attend one of their seminars, they got stuff for us none internet savvy guys to learn and us to better defend ourselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
My point exactly. As a "white hat" IT professional, I know how easy & common it is (hence my guarantee above...)

Seeing it happen to some kid makes me ill.
 

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My point exactly. As a "white hat" IT professional, I know how easy & common it is (hence my guarantee above...)

Seeing it happen to some kid makes me ill.
:agree:

Maybe you should write a "Defense Against the Dark Net Arts" thread for us. I've learned a lot in college in 4 years about computers, and I know I only know enough that I'm only protected against viruses and spyware only by good surfing habits and use of good software. Once I started reading at Black Hat about computer forensics I really began to feel unsafe about the net.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Unfortunately, seige theory means genuine protection is impossible -- the defender has to totally guard every opening at every moment against all known & unknown threats while the attacker has time on his side and only needs one crack in one defense point... :(

Truly wanna be safe on the 'net? Don't connect to it. :D

EDIT: Just for clarity, I am not a penetration tester -- I only mentioned "white hat" to differentiate from "black hat".
 

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Well, let's just say this -- I can guarantee that there is at least one member on this forum who could lift & spoof your IP address & make VoIP calls to anywhere that trace directly back to your computer and could do so before the sun rises tomorrow. So, guilty until proved innocent and prior abuses make current or future abuses acceptable and you think you have nothing to hide so it's OK if the federal government violates the constitutional rights of a minor citizen??? I just lost a lot of respect for you, my friend.

BTW, this is not an isolated case of Patriot Act abuse but it is the most egregious I have heard of (and happens to have occurred just up the road from me...)
but what makes you think they couldn't do this before the patriot act?? ;)

edit: rather than add a new post, i'll just say this; the (*another edit, i'm retarded... pres is sworn to protect constitution and implied in this is citizens of the U.S.), but he has to maintain a balance between freedom and order, after 9/11, our country drastically shifted towards order, not saying i like it all that much, but how many places have been blown up in 8 years?
 

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Unfortunately, seige theory means genuine protection is impossible -- the defender has to totally guard every opening at every moment against all known & unknown threats while the attacker has time on his side and only needs one crack in one defense point... :(

Truly wanna be safe on the 'net? Don't connect to it. :D
Well that much I figured, especially the "Don't Log on" part. But I figured that there was something more to help safeguard a PC than good browsing habits and a good set of security software.

I use Zonealarm Firewall, PeerGuardian, AVG, AdAware, Spyware Blaster, and Windows Defender and I thought I was pretty safe till I started reading Black Hat. My router has a hardware firewall, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
but what makes you think they couldn't do this before the patriot act?? ;)
My point is that it is "legal" now. It could happen before (and could happen legally in many other countries both now & in the past) but, on face value, this violates the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth & tenth amendments to the Constitution...
 

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Well that much I figured, especially the "Don't Log on" part. But I figured that there was something more to help safeguard a PC than good browsing habits and a good set of security software.

I use Zonealarm Firewall, PeerGuardian, AVG, AdAware, Spyware Blaster, and Windows Defender and I thought I was pretty safe till I started reading Black Hat. My router has a hardware firewall, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
I think the odds would be that if a hacker couldn't get in easily, he'd move on to an easier target... either way, ID theft is great for a hacker, just until i figure out who he is, and where he's going.
 

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but what makes you think they couldn't do this before the patriot act?? ;)
They really couldn't. But now they have the legal precedent to take something minor as a stolen IP and now punish the person who used the PC as if he were the one making the threat.

IP's get recycled all the time all over the world. Just because the shoe fits, doesn't mean you wore it. How many people are a size 9 in this world?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well that much I figured, especially the "Don't Log on" part. But I figured that there was something more to help safeguard a PC than good browsing habits and a good set of security software.

I use Zonealarm Firewall, PeerGuardian, AVG, AdAware, Spyware Blaster, and Windows Defender and I thought I was pretty safe till I started reading Black Hat. My router has a hardware firewall, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
Sounds like you have taken reasonable precautions, I think. That's really the best you can do -- that combined with good sense and paying attention for things that seem "odd".

Wanna read a scary story? Find the one about the retired Well Fargo VP who was arrested for being a "ring leader" after she was a victim of identity theft...
 

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My point is that it is "legal" now. It could happen before (and could happen legally in many other countries both now & in the past) but, on face value, this violates the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth & tenth amendments to the Constitution...
it's been legal since the constitution was written technically... it's called the "necessary and proper clause" or something like that i believe. :D

keep in mind that congress and the senate passed the bill, not W.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think the odds would be that if a hacker couldn't get in easily, he'd move on to an easier target... either way, ID theft is great for a hacker, just until i figure out who he is, and where he's going.
This is definitely true with script kiddies but is no challenge for a real hacker in just the same way that a deadbolt only keeps out lazy robbers and honest people. Let me sneak netcat on your PC and you are pwned...
 

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They really couldn't. But now they have the legal precedent to take something minor as a stolen IP and now punish the person who used the PC as if he were the one making the threat.

IP's get recycled all the time all over the world. Just because the shoe fits, doesn't mean you wore it. How many people are a size 9 in this world?
look... i just wrote a paper on this, i read through both sides of the argument, but the justice department makes it clear that this is not anything new.

"Sec. 435 enables law enforcement officials to use court ordered wiretapping to investigate various immigration offense"

^anti-terrorism act, 1996

http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/96-499.htm

read the justice dept's site.. there's a lot of good info there.. you can read the American Civil Liberties Union's site too, some good stuff there (against justice dept), in the end it's your opinion on how much security you think we need, but as far as i'm concerned, the taliban almost has nukes in pakistan, and THAT scares me.. i'm for order right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
it's been legal since the constitution was written technically... it's called the "necessary and proper clause" or something like that i believe. :D

keep in mind that congress and the senate passed the bill, not W.
No, sir. Article one, section 8, clause 18 allows Congress to pass "all laws" but does not allow those laws to be in violation of the Constitution or any amendment thereto. Had emotions not been running so high when this Act was passed, this portion of it never would have seen the light of day.

Who passed it & who was president at the time is largely irrelevant.

The biggest problem with laws like this is the potential for future abuse -- such as this case. Whether the kid actually made the calls or not is also irrelevant, too, because he is still supposed to be afforded the protections guarranteed him.
 

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The biggest problem with laws like this is the potential for future abuse -- such as this case. Whether the kid actually made the calls or not is also irrelevant, too, because he is still supposed to be afforded the protections guarranteed him.
Yep, but the bigger problem is that so few people realize that the Constitution does trump these so called laws.

The kid had his 4th and 14th amendment rights revoked. One can make a very good case based on discrimination. Kids his age are typically the ones who do stupid stuff along the lines of "Boys will be Boys". All that a lawyer has to do is prove discrimination based on age and the courts should release him because his 14th amendment rights were violated.

The real problem here is that we as a nation have given up so much of our individual power and rights to the gov't under the notion of "Its for our own good" that we are no longer able to defend ourselves when **** like this happens. This is but the beginning of a long trip down a very slippery slope. Do we become a Nanny state like England or do we become a Iron Fisted nation with Orwellian levels of control on individuals like what happens in 1984?

I'm of the opinion we'll start out like England, but quietly veer toward 1984.
 
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